Difficult Stakeholder Dynamics

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Wendy

Welcome to this week’s life Science law cast. I am Wendy Lloyd Goodwin, the founder of life Science law with me today is Rebecca Clothier, a solicitor with many years of experience leading legal teams within the pharmaceutical industry. Today we will focus on the critical relationship between in-house legal teams and their business stakeholders. 

Welcome Rebecca. For those who may not have heard the previous lawcast I wonder if you could please provide a short Introduction in terms of your background and expertise. 

Rebecca

Hi Wendy. Thank you. Yes I have, obviously I’m a solicitor, I’ve worked in private practice and in-house working many years in the pharmaceutical industry for big Pharma, but also been several years working in consumer healthcare and medicines in a variety of roles both at affiliate level Mere level and in global roles.

Wendy

Great. Thank you so much. So you will have had a plethora of experience in terms of dealing with, what we’ve termed here, “difficult stakeholders” and and the dynamics they’re in. First of all, let’s talk about the definition of “difficult stakeholders”. I mean I already want to turn that on its head because I’m not sure that there is such a thing as a “difficult stakeholder”. What would you say to that? 

Rebecca 

Yeah. Right, I mean, I think being a lawyer, you know you’re approach to things is perhaps different to other people’s and you know they could they could deem you as a difficult stakeholder as well, so I think it’s more useful and helpful to look at this from the point of view of that people have different approaches to things. They’ve got different personality types. They’re, you know, they’re doing a different role and their objectives may well be quite different to yours. So I think it’s more helpful to look at this from the point of view of managing stakeholders with different approaches and different personalities to you. How do you do that?

Wendy

And that’s a good question when landing a client. For instance how do you get to know your stakeholders? And I guess I’ve just answered my first question. You need to get to know your stakeholders we’re all different, but how do you go about doing that?

Rebecca 

Yes gosh, I mean it is. I think, you know, you need to when first going into a role. This is particularly valid for I guess more junior lawyers, but you need to find out who your key stakeholders are going to be, who you can be working with. Know how legal operates. 

I always think a partnering approach with the businesses is really important. Get close to those people, but also, you know, develop tactics to do that so that you’re seen as a valuable advisor, not as a roadblock or  someone who’s just a naysayer. So you know things that are really important in that respect are things like good communications. So positive and empathetic communication. You know, the way you frame your advice. All those things. There’s a whole plethora of different issues there and maybe we should look at some of those in a bit more detail. You know that those communication skills I think are really important.

And what’s your view on that Wendy? Have you got any experiences of where your communication style made a big difference? 

Wendy

Lets take a step back in terms of different personalities before we look at how you communicate. And I think the point that you made earlier in terms of the personality type is really important. I’ve done a number of different kind of  tests in-house to ascertain what sort of personality I am. For instance, I’ve done the insights where you’re either a red green blue or yellow person or a combination of all of those things and it was really interesting when I first did it to understand the way in which different personality types like to be communicated with. I mean for instance, I know that I’m a red person type, and that’s what you normally expect from leaders and managers within the business. You’re a director, you want to get things done. You want to get to the point. Whereas someone with a green or more yellow personality, is much more of a storytelling kind of a people person. A caring personality that wants to understand the context and then get to the point. Or you’ve got the blue, very analytical types. And also that is another legal trait and I know that I’ve got blue in me too. In terms of the analyst wanting to get to the point, get it done and sometimes you know you can forget that actually there are emotions involved. You need to be empathetic. You need to ensure that you’re communicating in the way which your stakeholders appreciate. 

Rebecca

I think that’s a very valuable point. It’s sort of adapting your approach, isn’t it, to the stakeholder you’re interacting with. It’s not just about the communication skills. As you say you’ve got to take it one step back first. Naturally have a look and see who you are communicating with. Do you need to adapt your style maybe to to deal with that person and also recognise that they maybe don’t speak the same language as you, and that may maybe a style or personality but it could also be a they just don’t understand the importance of legal at it’s very basic level. It may be more about, you need to do some education you know as well as adapt your approach so that that person, perhaps understands you better or get’s where you’re coming from. 

Wendy

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we need to remember that some of the stakeholders we are working with may not have worked in an in-house situation before. For instance, you get a lot of scientists who come from a lab and then join a pharmaceutical company. They might not have had the opportunity or the need to liaise with legal before.

So, as you say, it’s about educating the business in terms of what value you bring to the table and why they would want to interact with you. It’s also important to understand their challenges so that you can work together effectively.

One thing I believe you need to do when entering a new business is to understand the business itself. Proactively going to the departments and having meetings to understand some of the science is crucial. We may never be scientists ourselves, but since we are dealing with scientists and science-based products, we need to understand to a degree what the products are about and what challenges our business stakeholders are facing.

Often, there can be challenges where legal does not fully understand the business’s challenges or what they’re trying to achieve, or vice versa. The business might not understand the legal issues involved. They may have something that needs to be done without realising there is a legal implication. So, again, it comes back to that communication piece.

Rebecca 

It is. And good active listening I think is the other bit there, as you pointed out, is understanding being willing to understand and listen. They’re really important tactics and skills for establishing a good partnership.

Wendy

Yeah exactly have you had any instances where, I said there’s no such thing as a difficult stakeholder, but I can certainly think of some instances where there has been an impasse or you know a situation where you know your liaising with a stakeholder which you know they don’t want to interact with you and that they don’t like what you’re telling them. Have you ever had that situation?

Rebecca 

Sure. Yes, of course. I mean, I can think of two scenarios there, really. I mean, one, I’m pretty task-focused and very good at analysing a lot of information very quickly and developing thoughts and solutions and all the rest of it. I remember a scenario where I did just that and quickly came out with a response: this is the way we have to approach it. The person on the other end, because I hadn’t taken the time to take them through my analytical process and I just sort of sprung the answer on them, they weren’t with me. That caused a difficulty. What was interesting is they then did work with me and we worked through this process, and it proved to be obviously the right process. At the end of it, they were delighted. But I think that lack of willingness to accept the fact that somebody perhaps needed a bit more time for me to take them with me was a big mistake on my part.

The other scenario that I was thinking about, in terms of where communication hadn’t worked terribly well, was a scenario where you’ve got a very difficult person. When I say difficult, I mean just a very different approach to things, didn’t speak the same language, and education was needed in order to get them on the same page. It took me a while to work through that. There’s a couple of scenarios.

Wendy

Thank you. So yeah, about overcoming resistance, I’ve certainly had that scenario. How do you deal with that? You know, I have had a situation where you really kind of think, “Oh my gosh, I’ve got to give the stakeholder this news that I know they’re not going to want to hear.” What is the best approach? Of course, the best approach is to confront it, but also not be confrontational. For me, I’ve always found that being transparent, open, and honest is the best policy.

If you feel that there is an impasse, directly address that with the stakeholder. I’ve always found that the best results come when I say, “Oh gosh, I feel that you’re not liking the advice that I’m providing here. Can you explain?” Let them vent, in a way. Often, you then find that they’re not actually annoyed with the advice you’re giving. Oftentimes, it’s another challenge, like needing to get something done because their manager told them they need to get it done, or they’re late with doing something, or they should have done it previously. So now, to be told that they can’t do it because they haven’t done it on time is the challenge itself.

Allowing them to have the floor to vent has provided the most success in that scenario. In those scenarios, I’ve often found that turning those challenging situations with stakeholders into allies is possible. If you level with them, understand their challenge and approach, and try to find a way to meet what they need, I think that’s the approach that has worked well.

Rebecca 

There’s a couple of things that, just in terms of you mentioned, you know, getting in early, I think is key. Often, legal is brought in at the last minute, after everything was done, just to rubber stamp something. That isn’t helpful for the business, and it isn’t helpful for legal. I think managing stakeholders, if you can get in early and have the conversations—the sensible conversations—and get to the right place, that stops a lot of the antagonism.

The other thing is, I think for me, because I’m very task-focused, and as in the scenario I explained before, sometimes taking a step back, taking a moment, and actually saying to somebody, “Well, these are my initial thoughts, but I would like to take this away and think about it. I know what you’re trying to achieve; now let me go away and think about this fully.” Actually taking that moment gives you a chance to approach things in a different way, to find a way to help the business, but also to give the business an indication that you’re taking them seriously. Then reconvene and explain the process to them. I think that sometimes is a very good way.

I’ve learned that it’s a very good way for me to deal with the fact that I am so task-focused and actually help to bring other people with me. Developing your tactics to approach different people differently is important, but taking time, I think, is an important point.

Wendy

Absolutely right. While you were speaking there, I was thinking about difficult stakeholders. But actually, flipping it around and looking at ourselves—how easy are we to deal with? How well are we communicating? Often, we are explaining extremely complex areas of the law. We speak the jargon, and there are lots of acronyms within the pharmaceutical industry, as well as a lot of legal jargon. We need to be mindful of this when we’re communicating with the business, ensuring that we are explaining often complex things in terms that people can understand.

I always think the sign of a good lawyer is being able to explain very complex things in simple terms and ensuring that stakeholders have understood what you have said. Sometimes, actually asking the business for their understanding of the advice you have provided can help with that scenario. This ensures that everyone is leaving the room on the same page. Miscommunication can occur when legal is not on the same page as the stakeholder.

I’ve seen it in meetings, and I’m sure you have as well, where you can see two people discussing a point, but they are not on the same page. This is sometimes where legal can step in and say, “Hang on a minute, I think there are two different perspectives here.

Rebecca

Yeah, and I think asking open questions is a very good way of getting people to see the point of view that you’re trying to convey. For example, asking, “What do you think would happen in this scenario?” helps. Just asking those open questions is a very good, non-confrontational way of bringing people with you and getting them to see your point of view, ensuring they’re on the same page as you.

It takes time and patience, which, if you are quite task-focused, it may not come naturally. However, it is a very useful tool for getting people on the same page as you.

Wendy

Absolutely, I think the key there is that it takes time. Dealing with stakeholders is about relationships, trust, and understanding that there are different ways of doing things. Different people will want to do things differently, and their approaches will be different. It’s not enough to be a lawyer who understands the law; you also need to understand, more importantly in some ways, how to interact with stakeholders to get the best out of them and to ensure that they get the best out of you.

Rebecca

Agreed, and it’s about developing good relationships. I think it’s also about understanding yourself. As you mentioned before, Wendy, understanding that your approach may be causing a problem and being willing to look at that is important too.

Wendy

Yes, exactly. That growth mindset of looking to learn and develop is crucial. None of us are fixed; we need to be adapting and changing to our environments and understanding the bigger picture. As you say, looking inwardly at oneself as well as outwardly is important.

A fascinating discussion, Rebecca. Thank you. I’ve really enjoyed today’s discussion. Before we end, is there any closing remark you would like to make in terms of how to successfully deal with challenging stakeholders?

Rebecca

I think one of the important things is to understand that sometimes you know what you should be doing, but it can be very difficult to actually do it. If you know that your communication style isn’t the best or you acknowledge that you are very task-focused, have an open conversation with someone and see if you can find a better way of collaborating. That’s always good.

First and foremost, having that growth mindset and being willing to explore how you can do things in a better way is crucial. Even getting a mentor can be beneficial. If there are areas for development, pick someone you recognize as very good at communicating and bringing people with them, and work with them to develop these skills. They don’t come overnight; they take time. Listening to someone who has developed those skills and is willing to share their development journey with you is very helpful.

Wendy

Thank you. Yes, indeed. Well, stakeholders definitely need a special touch—lots of communication, empathy, and teamwork. To everyone listening, we hope you’ve picked up some useful tips to help enhance the relationships between your legal team and stakeholders. If you have any questions, please do reach out to us; we would be delighted to help you.

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