Managing Your Career In-House

Welcome to the Life Science LawCast, were we aim to tackle challenges faced by overstretched legal and compliance teams in bite size chunks covering regulatory updates, as well as some hints and tips on how to engage with the internal stakeholders positively maintaining a proactive can-do reputation and developing your career whilst keeping your sanity. In each LawCast, our community of legal and compliance experts will cover topics they have tackled whilst working within the pharmaceutical and biotech sectors.

Welcome to this week’s Life Science LawCast. I’m Wendy Lloyd Goodwin, the founder of Life Science Law. With me today is Rebecca Clothier, a solicitor with many years of experience leading legal teams within the pharmaceutical industry. Today we are focusing on navigating and managing your career within in-house legal department.

Wendy

Welcome, Rebecca, thank you for joining us. I wonder if you could please provide a short introduction in terms of your background and experience.

Rebecca

Hi, Wendy, thank you. Yes, I have, you know, worked both in private practise and in-house starting off, you know, in the early days, in private practise and then moving to In-house when I was about, you know, three or four years qualified. And I’ve worked in both consumer health, pharmaceutical industry as well as veterinary medicine, doing a variety of roles across, you know, UK affiliates, European teams and global teams. I’ve been in many different positions across the Pharma industry.

Wendy

Gosh, thank you. I imagine the transition from private practise to in house was colossal I remember myself that jump from private practise to in-house was a very difficult transition.

I wonder if you could provide us some of your insights into how that felt for you.

Rebecca

Yes, gosh, it was a long time ago. I think it’s a huge transition, you know, not just in terms of, you know, and trying to understand the business that you’ve moved into.

But it’s a mindset change from going from a, you know, pure legal approach to problems to solutions, solving, you know, finding solutions to problems and working with the business. And I think that requires a massively different mindset, a practical approach, you know, perfectionism think, you know, you need to change that approach.

You need to obviously keep maintain high standards. But, you know, not everything has to be perfect, which I think is a change from private practise. And I think the biggest change of all is just learning to listen and be humble because you’re in private practise.

You’ve your approach is you’re a legal expert, and that may well be the case. But when you move to industry, you’re very much, you know, not the person who knows the most about the business, and it’s really important to be able to listen and be humble.

I mean, I can certainly recall one instance with me where I, you know, was looking, there was there was an issue. This is in pharma and it was a data privacy issue and I was looking at it and my, my view was actually, we’ve got a very defendable case here and let let’s approach this from a very legal perspective and defend it, and the business were actually quite horrified. I don’t think they took well to the advice that I gave them simply because when you looked at in the it is in the round of a of a, you know, pharmaceutical industry and under the A B P code there was potential for I’m not going to go into details about the background of this issue. But there was potential for there to be a Clause two based on the behaviour that had occurred, and I had not considered that at all when you know, when giving the information.

So it’s that difference, it’s the ability to see things as the business, see them and provide your advice within that context. And that is a huge step for a junior lawyer moving from private practise to in house.

Wendy

Sure, and you also bring in the very important regulatory aspect of the of the industry as well. So you know it’s not enough to know the law, you also need to understand the industry codes and ensuring that that you are applying those when also providing your legal advice. And I remember when I first went in house trying to obtain that knowledge was quite difficult in terms of, you know, not only trying to get involved in the business and learn about the business to then also learn the regulations as, well, you know.

How did you handle that?

Rebecca

Yeah, I think I think a lot of that is learning on the job. If I’m honest, Wendy, you know, and facing the different scenarios where you need to, you know, step up and, understand and, you know it is.

Sometimes, you know, you do feel as if you’re flying by the seat of your pants a little bit, but there’s definitely an element of learning on the job and learning from the situations that you are you are facing.

I don’t think there’s the way of, you know, explaining that. You know, the other thing, I think that that got me when I moved to Pharma, where were all the acronyms like an impenetrable castle that you learning to get to grips with all those?

So you’re absolutely right, though it’s I don’t I don’t think there is a shortcut to learning all of all the regulatory aspects without just doing the work you are that that is the way to get to grips with it.

Wendy

Yeah, and I also think one thing that that I learned is realising that actually, you are surrounded by experts within their field. So it’s not the lawyer’s job to be the expert with everything. It’s ok to ask questions, it’s ok to say you don’t understand something, and to actually ask the business to explain some of the scientific rationale behind what they’re doing and, you know, understand the business and not holding yourself out really is kind of like being the expert on everything.

Rebecca

Yes, absolutely. I guess there is, you know, that’s where the humbleness comes in. But I think you’re totally right. I mean, get close to the medics, they will understand the background science.

And you can’t do a legal role in pharma without having some understanding for every asset that you’re working on, some understanding of the background science so that, you know, looking back now, I would absolutely say that to a junior lawyer. Get close to the medics that you’re working with. Get close to get close to ethics and compliance as well. But get close to the medics because you are partners together and, they can help you a lot in terms of understanding, totally.

Wendy

Yeah, and as you say, that that business partner approach of actually levelling with the business and not being the detached lawyer that you know, we have that reputation to be kind of like unapproachable before we even open our mouths, right?

So it’s for us as well, and another challenge is to try to be a leveller with the business to work with them and, yeah, just to be there and conquering the challenges together as it were rather than being as detached.

Rebecca

Totally. I think I mean business partnering, I think, is hugely important because you want at the end of the day, you want your advice to be, accepted. But you also need to in order to do that, you need to bring the business with you. You can’t just demand people follow your advice that that doesn’t work.

You know that business partnering piece is hugely important and it has several different facets to it. It’s not just a about, you know, being pushed to work with people. It’s about, getting on their wavelength, showing that you’re with them understanding, active listening, being involved and your communication skills as well being proactive and communicate in a way that people will understand.

I mean, there’s one thing I did find often that you know you’re working with different functions in industry and not all of them will speak the same language as you. You know, certainly if you’re working on an on an IT project, for instance, I’ve always found that you know, IT professionals speak a different language, and sometimes you actually have to just pull it all back and, you know, try and work together in terms of understanding where each other is coming from. There’s no point in just trying to force solutions.

Think that piece of working with the team bringing in, you know, working with understanding all the different stakeholder points and then bringing people with you when you’ve heard their views is massive.

Wendy

Yeah, absolutely. And that brings me on to a couple of other things that came to mind as you were speaking there.

It’s in terms of ensuring that the business is also asking the right questions or actually flipping on its head, you know, and making sure that you understand what the question is that the business wants you to answer. And ensuring that actually therefore, that the advice you provide, is the advice that they are looking for, not something that’s different than the question that they’ve actually asked and managing those expectations.

Rebecca

Yeah, I think that that is a big one. I think I certainly had a light bulb moment at one point in my career. I think as lawyers, we sort of rush in, we’re quite task focused, we rush in. It’s like, here’s the solution and you know it.

You know the challenge, then, is often to say, you know, no, and the challenges is to, you know, see how you can work around that, you know, so that you’re finding a solution.

So I certainly found, you know, fairly early on in my career, asking the question what are you trying to achieve here is actually hugely valuable because you then get a perspective that allows you to explore different solutions with the business and not just come in with an answer which, you know, may maybe you know, a good legal answer, but maybe doesn’t actually address what the what the business is trying to achieve.

Wendy

Yeah, I think that’s a tremendous distinction, isn’t it? Between private practise and in house, you know, in a in a private practise situation, you often provide the client with the examples of well, you could do this, but on the other hand, you could do that and not actually coming out with that. Well, actually, this is what would be a good solution.

Whereas in house, the business very much does want you to provide that answer to the objective that they’re trying to achieve. And they definitely don’t want to hear the word no.

Rebecca

Yeah, And I think the only thing you you’re doing in in in industry is also a balancing risk, isn’t it?

You know, you’re making, you’re trying to get to a place where you’re making smart decisions where you know, not everything is risk free. But there are always boundaries in terms of, you know, not breaking the law.

There are areas of grey and, you know, I think, you know, explaining that or being willing to, you know, let the business understand what those you know shades of grey look like is helpful. So that that that that a good decision can be made based on, you know, it’s an informed risk if they want to take, want to take risks. But it’s an informed decision and that that is valuable to the business. They want to hear that they want to know. You know, if I do this, then what will be the scenario? But also they want to have your advice, you know, based on the solution to that problem.

Wendy

Yeah, absolutely and timelines as well. I think that’s something else that is of critical importance to ensure that both the lawyer and the business stakeholder is clear in terms of what the timelines are.

You know, often times I’ve had situations where the business need it done yesterday, and you therefore then change all of your goal posts to kind of like, get that piece of work done. And then it goes back to the client and then they sit with it for many weeks, and then suddenly it comes back to you for another urgent kind of like turnaround.

Yeah, timelines and managing expectations.How would you have dealt with that?

Rebecca

I think, I mean, I think it’s interesting when we’re talking about managing your career, and I think when you’re a junior lawyer in House, you sometimes struggle with those issues.

Definitely, you know, and getting to know your stakeholders helps because you know, you’re working with a variety of different individuals, some of whom you know when they give you a deadline. It is a deadline, and other people that perhaps it’s less so and things are less urgent.

So I think that is that is an experience point, you know, managing expectations I think don’t be afraid to say no to things. If you genuinely can’t do them within the time, look for other solutions, you know it may be you need to reach out to other people to assist but be realistic.

You know, things can’t always be done instantly, and I don’t think you know, I think the business very often respects that they don’t necessarily, you know, provided you’re, you know, are actually getting on and doing the work you need to do.

So I think that’s an experience thing. I think that’s probably true of, of all professionals, you know, learning to set expectations with the business. Explain when you will be able to get back to them. You know, can you give them a short and dirty answer very quickly and then say you will look at certain aspects in more detail?

All those things are skills that we all need to develop if I’m honest, but it’s definitely in house where you’ve got multiple different stakeholders coming to you. It’s important. It’s important to be able to learn those skills.

Wendy

Yeah, sure, absolutely.

So it certainly is a multitude of things that that you need to take into account when, when looking to develop your career within an in-house situation, both understanding the business, understanding the stakeholders, understanding the law. There are a lot of things, things to juggle. And, of course, in terms of getting promotions within an in house situation, often there aren’t that many opportunities to obtain a promotion to a senior level or the GC level or whatever that is, because the legal team is small. There’s normally only, you know, one boss within an organisation, you know, so, you know, during my career, I found it difficult to get those promotional opportunities.

How did you handle that?

Rebecca

Yeah, I think I experienced the same, I think it’s it is hard. I think you know, you may also need to look at other approaches, though, you know, moving companies isn’t always the right answer. I mean, I’ve certainly moved companies to get, you know, get a promotion, and that is that.

You know, I think it is more accepted nowadays that people do that. Although there is always a downside, you know you may not find yourself in a supportive environment as you did before. There’s always a bit of the, you know, a learning curve. You’ve got to get close to stakeholders again.

But I think if you’re if you want to stay where you are, I think you know there are there are things you can do. You can take a, you know, a move perhaps into another related function. So perhaps a move into ethics and compliance you could look at, you know, potential overseas opportunities.

Don’t be afraid of asking if there are, you know, or if you’re interested in a particular area, don’t be afraid of looking for opportunities in those areas. Talk to your boss. I mean, most good bosses will be supportive of career development and will actively help you try and find other opportunities that can create additional skill sets for you.

That would be useful, perhaps so that you are putting yourself in a position where if that role that you really want comes up, you are the number one candidate for it. I think that’s the way to look at it. What do I need to do to put myself in a position where I am the number one candidate for this role if it comes up.

I think the other thing also to bear in mind is you know, it’s very easy when you’re in a in an in house legal team to think, Oh, I want the top job, I want that role. You know, I would always ask somebody to sense check that. Look at your skills.

Don’t be afraid of actually thinking about, you know, what is it I love doing? Is this role right for me? I think all too often people sort of just automatically think I need to go to the next step and it has to be this role, and that isn’t always true.

I think it’s more important to be finding a promotion or finding a more challenging role that is the right fit for you. So look at that as well. It is something that as you develop your career, you perhaps realise there may be opportunities in other places that might be more suitable, and that’s kind of going off point slightly because it’s about sort of in the legal team. But I think the key, I’m sort of trying to voice this is be open minded that there may be other opportunities that help can help you achieve your ultimate career goal.

Wendy

Sure. Thank you Rebecca.

I really enjoyed, your insights If we now, move to the close.

What would be the one word of wisdom in terms of, you know, to someone coming into life sciences with regard to developing your career? Or, you know, what would be the one thing that you wouldn’t do?

Rebecca

So I think I think for me, and I think this is something that I know I’m not very good at and I’ve I but I think it’s really important these days is to learn to mark your brand and when I say that, I don’t mean be out there or showing I mean, you know, slowly and assuredly promote yourself.

Make sure you’re making the right connections. Talk to people network in an appropriate professional way.

But, you know, I think building up that that profile with you know, more senior people, I think is a really important thing. You know, I think gone are the days where you know career progression comes just based on merit. It is multiple things. So I think, you know, because I think this is something that I have not perhaps always done.

I think marketing your brand is really important.

Wendy

Thank you, Rebecca, I would agree.

So thank you so much for today’s session, Rebecca, I’ve really enjoyed speaking with you and listening to your journey and your insights in terms of managing your career to our listeners.

We hope this episode has provided you with practical advice and some inspiration for your own career paths in the pharmaceutical industry.

But if you have any questions or would like to share your own experience, please do reach out. Your story could be featured in a future episode.

Thank you for listening.

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We will also cover case studies on how we have supported businesses, ensure they stay the right side of legal and regulatory parameters. And we will also cover ideas on how to develop your professional careers whilst looking after your mental well being and remaining sane.